The first online "flame war" I every experienced was in 1993 or 94, in an AOL chatroom where I (much less eloquently than you have here) expressed this same view. I said the MFA route was silly, expensive, and damaging to American literature. I would not subject myself to the groupthink of never-ending workshops, to kowtow to a literary elite, even if it meant I would never get their stamp of approval, never be published by other MFA graduates now running the publishing world. In AOL, this was met with anger, disdain, and more ad hominem arguments than you can shake a stick at ("You're just not good enough to get an MFA!")
Well, here we are decades later, and what has American literature become? Both poetry and prose are firmly in what you describe as a "managerial" mindset, with no great authors, but "competent" pieces praised by the "lit fic club." Love your ouroboros description--that's right on: the snake is eating its own tail.
Thanks. I wish it weren't true. But the managerial beast has taken over all the arts and culture industries to such an absurd extent that it's actually kind of exciting now to realize how much pent-up demand there is for real art and storytelling. For a lot of folks, that MFA isn't going to look so shiny anymore.
That mirrors my the way my thoughts have been heading for some time as well.
Independent publishing, especially, will grow more and more, I think, adn its quality will continue to improve--without the "deadpub gatekeepers" squelching new and interesting voices (especially we dreaded white, middle-class Christian males). I think it will still take some years, though, as we need to resolve new issues. Namely, if anyone can publish anything in seconds, how do readers find those books and poems that are both high-quality and unique? This will all be resolved, eventually, but right now it's like drinking from the firehose.
Hi Connor, thanks for sharing. Agree with everything here. I personally find that modern poetry is actually very materialistic - very focused on form, and on sounding - ironically - like “poetry”. In contrast, I think the best poetry captures essence, something somewhat elusive, but real - like beauty. Keats’ odes are great for this. Other romantic poets also. It’s the distinction between inspired poetry and uninspired poetry, frankly. I’m at a loss as to how to explain this to people - and poets - who frankly probably don’t really know what real inspiration is. They get titillated, slightly and briefly curious about things; but that’s not inspiration. Thoughts?
I think we need to send them all out into the woods with nothing but a backpack and a multitool knife for 5 days. Or recruit *only* from rural West Virginian hollers, the Mississippi Delta, inner-city St. Louis, and similar places where life does not lend itself to dispassionate intrigue. Or both
Interesting. I am a senior adult (84 years old) currently enrolled in an MFA program in creative writing with a specialty in poetry at a local university. I have two master's degrees and an honorary doctorate. It is anything but 'shallow.' Many of the students could be my grandchildren, and even some of the professors are younger than my children, however, they are bright, intelligent, and extremely well-read. They tackle their writing in thoughtful and creative ways. They write about topics that are controversial, political, and very personal. I admire their approach, their forthrightness, and their imagination. I am treated like a peer. My work is critiqued with respect and honor, and I am proud to be among them.
The MFA is not for the faint of heart. It is for someone who wants to have their voice heard in a manner that resonates with concern and vision.
Thanks for these thoughts, Janice. I'm glad you're enjoying your MFA program. It sounds like a good fit for you. As I said, there were many aspects of my fine-arts training that I also appreciated.
I also agree that poetry can change (or at least help shape and guide) the world, but I think it does this more effectively when it's more directed to a wider audience, written by people with a broader range of experiences, and more willing to tackle themes like questions of civic virtue or tensions between competing moral claims than most workshop writing seems able, or willing, to do. In other words, poetry writing shouldn't just be for the self-expression of poets, it should be a means of communication — including with non-experts in literature.
That's one of the reasons I'm in favor of a return to form and rhyme for (most) English poetry. Normal people just like rhyming, metrical poems better; they stick in people's minds more; and they teach people about language and prosody much better than free verse can on its own.
Hi Connor, I'm actually still reading this blog post. There is so much in it. Regarding "Even 20 years ago....literary writing in the MFA world already seemed frustratingly shallow and self-referential, a kind of endless irony game rather...."
I thought over and over again about how 20 years ago (from 2005 to 2017) my late husband Edmond Caldwell, railed against literary fiction in his various reviews, blogs, books, twitter account, and so on. To achieve focus and impact, Edmond dedicated a blog to a figure in the literary fiction world, New Yorker critic James Wood. Wood's reviews portrayed the smallness and the imagination cowering before "the flat metaphysics of the 21st century.... All subjects are psychologized, reduced to therapeutic tropes, while reality itself remains just a series of objects or (usually pedestrian) situations..."
Edmond criticized Wood for reasons that resonate with what you wrote here, e.g....
Ah yes, yet another novel that ultimately counsels resignation (with a little poignant inner “resistance” in one’s holy consciousness) in the face of a world that cannot be changed.
Jiminy can point to all the “bottomless abysses and obscure referents” and name-dropping of Beckett and Bernhard that he likes – it’s misdirection, drawing attention to the curtains and wallpaper and the upholstery – never let it be said that Jiminy Critic is not an accomplished upholsterer! – rather than to the foundations of his own review. Those foundations are the same as always: realism, the novel of consciousness, metaphysics, quietism.
I wonder if 'quietism' is similar to what you've called the smallness of poems and the name-dropping is the perfected activity of the excellent sheep.
Thanks, Cathy — Edmond was right, there's a lot we could critique about contemporary literature (and literary criticism). In a follow-up post(s) I'll try to be a bit more constructive though. More flies with honey and all that.
I mean, workshops can be helpful. But it's way more beneficial for writing to go out and live and have experiences. Otherwise there's nothing to write about, no matter how finely tuned your prose is
Your phrase -- that the content of the poem about the wedding reception is *small* -- is ringing in my ears. At the same time, 10s of thousands of federal employees were fired and Trump and Co are touting their 'bold leadership' and the US will go down in history as a partner in Genocide. Well-off folks have always found ways to avoid grappling with the large issues of their times.
The first online "flame war" I every experienced was in 1993 or 94, in an AOL chatroom where I (much less eloquently than you have here) expressed this same view. I said the MFA route was silly, expensive, and damaging to American literature. I would not subject myself to the groupthink of never-ending workshops, to kowtow to a literary elite, even if it meant I would never get their stamp of approval, never be published by other MFA graduates now running the publishing world. In AOL, this was met with anger, disdain, and more ad hominem arguments than you can shake a stick at ("You're just not good enough to get an MFA!")
Well, here we are decades later, and what has American literature become? Both poetry and prose are firmly in what you describe as a "managerial" mindset, with no great authors, but "competent" pieces praised by the "lit fic club." Love your ouroboros description--that's right on: the snake is eating its own tail.
Well said, sir.
Thanks. I wish it weren't true. But the managerial beast has taken over all the arts and culture industries to such an absurd extent that it's actually kind of exciting now to realize how much pent-up demand there is for real art and storytelling. For a lot of folks, that MFA isn't going to look so shiny anymore.
That mirrors my the way my thoughts have been heading for some time as well.
Independent publishing, especially, will grow more and more, I think, adn its quality will continue to improve--without the "deadpub gatekeepers" squelching new and interesting voices (especially we dreaded white, middle-class Christian males). I think it will still take some years, though, as we need to resolve new issues. Namely, if anyone can publish anything in seconds, how do readers find those books and poems that are both high-quality and unique? This will all be resolved, eventually, but right now it's like drinking from the firehose.
So true. Every day my inbox just keeps bursting with Substack newsletters. I can't keep up. Alvin Toffler didn't know how right he was!
Hi Connor, thanks for sharing. Agree with everything here. I personally find that modern poetry is actually very materialistic - very focused on form, and on sounding - ironically - like “poetry”. In contrast, I think the best poetry captures essence, something somewhat elusive, but real - like beauty. Keats’ odes are great for this. Other romantic poets also. It’s the distinction between inspired poetry and uninspired poetry, frankly. I’m at a loss as to how to explain this to people - and poets - who frankly probably don’t really know what real inspiration is. They get titillated, slightly and briefly curious about things; but that’s not inspiration. Thoughts?
I think we need to send them all out into the woods with nothing but a backpack and a multitool knife for 5 days. Or recruit *only* from rural West Virginian hollers, the Mississippi Delta, inner-city St. Louis, and similar places where life does not lend itself to dispassionate intrigue. Or both
Small is right. There's only so much material of any value inside one's own navel.
Haha, well put
Interesting. I am a senior adult (84 years old) currently enrolled in an MFA program in creative writing with a specialty in poetry at a local university. I have two master's degrees and an honorary doctorate. It is anything but 'shallow.' Many of the students could be my grandchildren, and even some of the professors are younger than my children, however, they are bright, intelligent, and extremely well-read. They tackle their writing in thoughtful and creative ways. They write about topics that are controversial, political, and very personal. I admire their approach, their forthrightness, and their imagination. I am treated like a peer. My work is critiqued with respect and honor, and I am proud to be among them.
The MFA is not for the faint of heart. It is for someone who wants to have their voice heard in a manner that resonates with concern and vision.
Poetry can change the world...
Thanks for these thoughts, Janice. I'm glad you're enjoying your MFA program. It sounds like a good fit for you. As I said, there were many aspects of my fine-arts training that I also appreciated.
I also agree that poetry can change (or at least help shape and guide) the world, but I think it does this more effectively when it's more directed to a wider audience, written by people with a broader range of experiences, and more willing to tackle themes like questions of civic virtue or tensions between competing moral claims than most workshop writing seems able, or willing, to do. In other words, poetry writing shouldn't just be for the self-expression of poets, it should be a means of communication — including with non-experts in literature.
That's one of the reasons I'm in favor of a return to form and rhyme for (most) English poetry. Normal people just like rhyming, metrical poems better; they stick in people's minds more; and they teach people about language and prosody much better than free verse can on its own.
Of course, that's only me.
Hi Connor, I'm actually still reading this blog post. There is so much in it. Regarding "Even 20 years ago....literary writing in the MFA world already seemed frustratingly shallow and self-referential, a kind of endless irony game rather...."
I thought over and over again about how 20 years ago (from 2005 to 2017) my late husband Edmond Caldwell, railed against literary fiction in his various reviews, blogs, books, twitter account, and so on. To achieve focus and impact, Edmond dedicated a blog to a figure in the literary fiction world, New Yorker critic James Wood. Wood's reviews portrayed the smallness and the imagination cowering before "the flat metaphysics of the 21st century.... All subjects are psychologized, reduced to therapeutic tropes, while reality itself remains just a series of objects or (usually pedestrian) situations..."
Edmond criticized Wood for reasons that resonate with what you wrote here, e.g....
Ah yes, yet another novel that ultimately counsels resignation (with a little poignant inner “resistance” in one’s holy consciousness) in the face of a world that cannot be changed.
Jiminy can point to all the “bottomless abysses and obscure referents” and name-dropping of Beckett and Bernhard that he likes – it’s misdirection, drawing attention to the curtains and wallpaper and the upholstery – never let it be said that Jiminy Critic is not an accomplished upholsterer! – rather than to the foundations of his own review. Those foundations are the same as always: realism, the novel of consciousness, metaphysics, quietism.
I wonder if 'quietism' is similar to what you've called the smallness of poems and the name-dropping is the perfected activity of the excellent sheep.
http://contrajameswood.blogspot.com
Edmond maintained a more wide-ranging criticism of literary fiction at this blog:
http://thechagallposition.blogspot.com
Thanks, Cathy — Edmond was right, there's a lot we could critique about contemporary literature (and literary criticism). In a follow-up post(s) I'll try to be a bit more constructive though. More flies with honey and all that.
Getting an MFA to write is like getting an engineering degree to be a pole-vaulter.
I mean, workshops can be helpful. But it's way more beneficial for writing to go out and live and have experiences. Otherwise there's nothing to write about, no matter how finely tuned your prose is
Your phrase -- that the content of the poem about the wedding reception is *small* -- is ringing in my ears. At the same time, 10s of thousands of federal employees were fired and Trump and Co are touting their 'bold leadership' and the US will go down in history as a partner in Genocide. Well-off folks have always found ways to avoid grappling with the large issues of their times.
The end of cautious managerialism is definitely not going to be all sunshine and roses