Really great stuff, man. All those progressive cultures died from what I'd seen. I'm not really sure how they are now, but the pseudoromantic pop music of the 00s (it is romantic, but it was extremely corporate and mostly for middle upper class bourgeois who could travel like eat, pray, love stuff), the weird mythologizing of foreign languages thing, Ted talks and all that, i haven't seen how they've developed. They're definitely in the periphery. I do miss those survival shows that were on TV, but, again, not ascendant. You make a good point about music too. I'm not conservative at all, not liberal, progressive, but the aristocracy did a good job upholding a conservative appreciation of culture and music. Our conservatives are influenced more by rousseau. I think that the negative ideology thing, like distrusting all government institutions, until the hippies disliked the police and military, except said institutions is probably because they've just been underserved ideologically. They don't really have a governing ideology so they engage less "intellectually". The liberals have instead had their romantic streaks extremely developed. I'm not pro or against monarchy, but I think there's something possible for that conservative development.
> All those progressive cultures died from what I'd seen.
Yeah, it's kind of melancholy hanging out with graying hippies and realizing how few of their kids are having kids. It's a cultural evolutionary dead end. But it's one thing to acknowledge that intellectually, and another to realize that the culture you grew up in, which gave you touchstones and music and references that are really meaningful, is dying.
Glad you included this, because it was gnawing (if lightly) at me:
“Big Idea books are, of course, less sophisticated than actual literature, the classics, or the Bible. The minority of conservatives who are intellectually oriented tend to read and talk about these kinds of books…”
But I sympathize very much with this (though I am not set up quite this way), and wonder if this is what is underneath a lot of complaints I hear in artistic circles, that they often feel out of place in the Church (in terms of its surrounding, congregant-level culture) while being committed to it and very at home with its (historical and theoretical, often, rather than local) openness to art and beauty.
I appreciate the clarity of insight here, personally and culturally. Delineates some things I’ve seen but had not wrestled down to a conclusion.
> wonder if this is what is underneath a lot of complaints I hear in artistic circles, that they often feel out of place in the Church
Good point. Congregant-level culture in churches tends to be pretty prosaic.
Not only that, but I also suspect this is part of why conservative intellectuals can be so bitter. You're a curious, idea-loving person, so you go to a good university and end up working in academia or journalism — and then you find yourself completely surrounded by people who think that stability and tradition are codewords for fascism.
A seemingly successful experiment against this on the artistic level is the Angelico Project in Cincinnati. Gives both artists a home and the culture and faithful a place to encounter quality Catholic art. Maybe it can be replicated elsewhere and in the context of intellectual discussion more broadly. (Beyond book clubs, or maybe just book clubs with a more public face. Part of it is finding like minds, but part of it is fostering more.)
I think you just described me, Connor, although rather than Catholicism my faith commitment is to a rich evangelicalism (think Christianity Today at its best). Thanks for this.
When Tom Wolfe was hanging with the Merry Pranksters (see "The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test"), he ID'd black, shiny, laced-up FBI shoes as the giveaway -- the sign you don't belong there. So just wear boots, preferably "light, fanciful boots" or "hand-tooled Mexican boots with Caliente Dude Triple A toes on them", and you're OK. At least you would be in 1967, and maybe now as well, who knows?
Really great stuff, man. All those progressive cultures died from what I'd seen. I'm not really sure how they are now, but the pseudoromantic pop music of the 00s (it is romantic, but it was extremely corporate and mostly for middle upper class bourgeois who could travel like eat, pray, love stuff), the weird mythologizing of foreign languages thing, Ted talks and all that, i haven't seen how they've developed. They're definitely in the periphery. I do miss those survival shows that were on TV, but, again, not ascendant. You make a good point about music too. I'm not conservative at all, not liberal, progressive, but the aristocracy did a good job upholding a conservative appreciation of culture and music. Our conservatives are influenced more by rousseau. I think that the negative ideology thing, like distrusting all government institutions, until the hippies disliked the police and military, except said institutions is probably because they've just been underserved ideologically. They don't really have a governing ideology so they engage less "intellectually". The liberals have instead had their romantic streaks extremely developed. I'm not pro or against monarchy, but I think there's something possible for that conservative development.
> All those progressive cultures died from what I'd seen.
Yeah, it's kind of melancholy hanging out with graying hippies and realizing how few of their kids are having kids. It's a cultural evolutionary dead end. But it's one thing to acknowledge that intellectually, and another to realize that the culture you grew up in, which gave you touchstones and music and references that are really meaningful, is dying.
That's very interesting. Do you find it influential with the kids who may have been grown up conservatively like you were?
Glad you included this, because it was gnawing (if lightly) at me:
“Big Idea books are, of course, less sophisticated than actual literature, the classics, or the Bible. The minority of conservatives who are intellectually oriented tend to read and talk about these kinds of books…”
But I sympathize very much with this (though I am not set up quite this way), and wonder if this is what is underneath a lot of complaints I hear in artistic circles, that they often feel out of place in the Church (in terms of its surrounding, congregant-level culture) while being committed to it and very at home with its (historical and theoretical, often, rather than local) openness to art and beauty.
I appreciate the clarity of insight here, personally and culturally. Delineates some things I’ve seen but had not wrestled down to a conclusion.
> wonder if this is what is underneath a lot of complaints I hear in artistic circles, that they often feel out of place in the Church
Good point. Congregant-level culture in churches tends to be pretty prosaic.
Not only that, but I also suspect this is part of why conservative intellectuals can be so bitter. You're a curious, idea-loving person, so you go to a good university and end up working in academia or journalism — and then you find yourself completely surrounded by people who think that stability and tradition are codewords for fascism.
A seemingly successful experiment against this on the artistic level is the Angelico Project in Cincinnati. Gives both artists a home and the culture and faithful a place to encounter quality Catholic art. Maybe it can be replicated elsewhere and in the context of intellectual discussion more broadly. (Beyond book clubs, or maybe just book clubs with a more public face. Part of it is finding like minds, but part of it is fostering more.)
Looks like a great initiative! Or apostolate. Here comes Catholicism to the rescue of civilization again!
Fun stuff, Connor!
Thanks!
I think you just described me, Connor, although rather than Catholicism my faith commitment is to a rich evangelicalism (think Christianity Today at its best). Thanks for this.
Thanks, Laird. I know there are crunchy corners of evangelicalism. The Rabbit Room is a good example: https://www.rabbitroom.com
When Tom Wolfe was hanging with the Merry Pranksters (see "The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test"), he ID'd black, shiny, laced-up FBI shoes as the giveaway -- the sign you don't belong there. So just wear boots, preferably "light, fanciful boots" or "hand-tooled Mexican boots with Caliente Dude Triple A toes on them", and you're OK. At least you would be in 1967, and maybe now as well, who knows?
How about battered thrift-store cowboy boots? Asking for a friend